Autor Tópico: Pirometro. dicas para medir temp dos pneus na pista e o que fazer com isso.  (Lida 1699 vezes)

GrandRoyaL

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Pyrometer Tips
 

Pyrometer Tips
Table of Contents

   1. Proper Depth and Location
   2. Adjustable Tip Probes
   3. Getting to the Tires Quickly
   4. Camber Adjustments
   5. Taking Advantage of New Tires
   6. Averaging
   7. IR Versus Probe
   8. Summary

A. Proper Depth and Location
In order to get consistent and relative tire temperature readings you must be sure to insert the probe as near to the cord as possible. You must also insert the probe to the same depth at all locations at each and every tire. Temperatures should be taken at 3 locations on each tire. Take one reading at the outside approximately 1.5" from the edge, one reading in the middle, and one reading approximately 1.5" from the inside edge. Do every tire the same way at the same depth and location.
As you insert the probe deeper into the tire you will find more heat. If you insert the probe half way in at one location and then all the way in at another location you will get temperature differences due to the different depths. You are trying to see relative numbers based on how the tire is heating due to camber or loading changes. Improper depth can confuse the true issue.
By inserting the probe to a depth down near the cord you will also use the surface rubber to momentarily insulate outside elements such as brake and engine heat away from your true temperatures. Further, by getting down near the cord you will also measure heating that is caused by an elastic stretching of the rubber. If your probe is too shallow you will not see the heat generated by the pulling of rubber from the tire carcass.
Another thing to consider when using a probe type pyrometer is that rubber is a poor conductor of heat. The metal probe will suck the heat out of an insertion hole very quickly as the metal probe transfers heat quicker than the rubber. At the first tire in a temperature session you should pre-heat the probe by inserting it in the rubber a few times before taking your readings. Once the probe is pre-heated you will get faster, more accurate and relative results.
Be careful not to leave the probe inserted too long in any one location. You need to measure the temperature rise at its maximum point and no more. If you wait too long the insertion point will start to cool, giving you inaccurate readings.
Pyrometers with an anticipation feature speed up the temperature taking process and automate the procedure so that your readings are taken as quickly as possible. You simply insert the probe and immediately hit the read button. The pyrometer will calculate the rate of temperature rise and automatically lock in the highest reading. The pyrometer will then prompt you to move to the next location. Pyrometers with anticipation complete all 12 temperatures in nearly half the time of conventional pyrometers.
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B. Adjustable Tip Probes
If you use a pyrometer with an adjustable tip probe you can set the probe to match the rubber gauge (thickness) for the different tracks that you run. The adjustable tip allows you to bury the needle of the probe all the way to the housing to insure that you are at the same depth each time. Repeatability increases dramatically and the relativity is better because you are always down near the cord with your probe tip.
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C. Getting to the Tires Quickly
You should always get to your car as quickly as possible to take tire temperatures. Each time the tires roll across the pavement the cooler pavement is sucking heat from the tires, which can skew your readings. You should even have your car stop at the nearest safe place to the track and have a crewmember waiting to take the readings.
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D. Camber Adjustments
Your pyrometer is a tool to see if you need to make a camber adjustment. I like to see the infield edge of the front tires run 10-15 degrees hot. 10-15 degrees gives you an indication that you are running the maximum amount of camber that will not give you excessive tire wear. You should always monitor the wear in conjunction with your pyrometer readings to insure that you do not wear out the edge of your tires prematurely.

   I. Too Much RF Camber

   Sometimes teams are running more RF camber than necessary as they are fooled by their pyrometer readings. If you are running an excessive amount of RF camber the pyrometer might only show the inside edge at 20 degrees hot. What you may not see is that if you reduce camber stand the tire up the inside edge may stay 20 degrees hot. Too much of a good thing so to speak.

   Start with a proven camber or your car builder's recommendation. Slowly add camber so that you can see the gradual heating of the inside edge. When you run excessive amounts of RF camber the tire is no longer able to stretch the contact surface between the sidewalls. The rubber cups and bunches at the inboard edge due to the excessive camber causing artificial heating, a loss of grip, and premature wear.

   II. Too Much LF Camber

   Because the LF has less load than the RF, you can sometimes see a visual clue that you have gone too far with the camber. The outside edge starts to show a strange beveled angle that is about 3/4" wide right at the outside edge. Instead of cleanly rolling the rubber off the outside edge the tire gets tipped so much when turned that it chews off the very outer edge.

   I would rather have slightly less than optimum LF camber than too much. The tire performance will stay all day as compared to excessive amounts. Excessive amounts of LF camber chews off the outside edge resulting in poor performance after just a few laps. The car will not reach optimum speed and the performance of the LF will fall off very quickly.

   You should strive to adjust the camber to the maximum limit without overshooting. Correct adjustments will help the car turn better on both long and short runs.

   III. Too Much Stagger

   On occasion you can see too much rear stagger in your tire temperatures. Sometimes the infield edges of the rear tires are noticeably hot. Depending on the tire wear characteristics of a given track, I might tone down the rear stagger to even out the edge temperatures to insure that the car is good on a long run. Judgment must prevail, as this is not a hard fast rule. Simply another variable to consider.
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E. Taking Advantage of New Tires
New tires are a big investment. Whenever a new set goes on the car I put more value in the tire temperatures from the sticker tire run and make sure that I get good temperature readings. When the tires are new they will have more friction and generate more heat than at any other time. The additional heat and added friction can provide subtle clues that may not be seen with worn tires.
Further, new tires are not worn down on any part of the contact patch. Therefore, your readings are not skewed by an area on the tire that has already been ground off. New tires have more friction so the tires are less likely to slide or spin. The temperatures more closely reflect the heat generated by tire loading. Looking at the effect tire loading gives you an indication of what the car will do in the future. Hopefully the car is already fast for the main event, but the new tire temperature opportunity might guide you into adding a touch of bite or putting in more stagger based on what you learn from your readings.
Be prepared and insure that you get a good temperature reading when new tires go on the car.
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F. Averaging
Temperature averaging is a good tool when your car is fast and only needs fine tuning. Tire temperatures are of little value when your car is in left field. If you car is handling poorly than the front tires will slide early in the turn and the rear tires will slide on exit. The sliding overheats the tires and can make the temperature sheet look balanced.
Temperature readings are more valuable as you get faster and faster. You can use the temperatures to assist you in fine-tuning the chassis. You might see something in the numbers that lets you look into the future allowing you to make a fine adjustment that improves the handling of the car on a long run.
Some memory pyrometers calculate the temperature averages for you. These devices really save a lot of time and allow you to use averages as another tool to fine tune your racecar. You can also use a simple calculator to accomplish the task.

   Averaging Tips

   By using historical information and common sense you can learn to see potential problems in your tire temperatures. Below are some scenarios based on tire temperatures and some potential cures.

   Left Average is abnormally cooler than Right Average

   

   1. Lower the panhard bar
   2. Smaller sway bar or less sway bar load
   3. Softer right side springs or stiffer left side springs
   4. Less stagger
   5. More left side air pressure or less right side air pressure
   6. Less left side shock rebound

   Rear Average is hotter than Front Average

   

   1. More front spring rate if car is unstable in
   2. Less rear spring rate unless car pushes on exit
   3. More sway bar or more sway bar load if loose in the middle and on exit
   4. Lower panhard bar
   5. More front air pressure if center of tire is cool
   6. Less rear weight if loose on entry and not loose on exit

   Front Average is hotter than Rear Average

   

   1. Less front spring rate if car is stable on entry
   2. More rear spring rate unless car is unstable on entry
   3. Less sway bar or less sway bar load if car is tight in the middle and on exit
   4. Raise panhard bar
   5. Less front air pressure if center of tire shows hot
   6. More rear weight unless car is loose on entry or in the middle

   Cross LR to RF is Hotter than LF to RR

   

   1. Less diagonal weight
   2. More stagger
   3. Smaller sway bar or less load
   4. Raise panhard bar
   5. Less LR spring rate unless car is loose on exit
   6. Less RF spring rate unless car is loose on entry
   7. More LF spring rate
   8. More RR spring rate unless car is loose

   Cross RR to LF is Hotter than LR to RF

   

   1. More diagonal weight
   2. Less stagger
   3. Bigger sway bar or more load
   4. Lower panhard bar
   5. Less RR spring
   6. More RF spring
   7. Less LF spring unless car is unstable on entry
   8. More LR spring will help hook up on exit

The temperature averaging suggestions are merely a starting point intended to provoke thought. There are more variables than listed above. Driver feedback, track conditions, racecar type are all factors that can cause variances in the suggestions listed. Real racetrack specifics need to out way generalities.
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G. IR Versus Probe
Probe type pyrometers are better for use on tires if used properly. Infrared type pyrometers measure only the tire surface and do not get inside the rubber to find the true results. The rubber down at the cord is insulated away from the outside elements providing for more accurate readings. Rubber at the cord is also heated due to elastic stretching of the rubber. Probes can reach in and see this heat.
Infrared pyrometers measure only the surface. The surface will be cooler as heat is dissipated off the surface very quickly due to the outside air cooling and simply rolling across the cooler track temperature. Typically the surface temperature is 20-40 degrees cooler than temperatures taken with a probe. Infrared temperatures will also be affected by artificial brake heat and engine heat.
You can use the infrared pyrometer for tire temperatures but it is a compromise. Your camber temperature curves will not be shown with as much clarity. Temperature differentials will be more dramatic with a probe allowing you to be more precise in your camber adjustments.
Infrared pyrometers do work well for surface temperatures such as track temperature, cockpit temps, header temps, brake temps, and the like. Probe type pyrometers do not work well for surface temperatures.
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H. Summary
Used properly tire temperatures will allow you to see what the racecar is going to do on a long run as the tires heat and wear. You will be able to see through what might be covered up by the extra grip from your new tires as racecars always feel better when the tires are fresh.
You can learn to anticipate what the car is going to do on long runs by using temperature averaging as a tool. Temperature averaging is of little benefit if the balance of the car is dramatically off. Remember your readings have more meaning as the car approaches optimum handling. Temperature averaging is of most benefit when your car is already very fast and you are looking for that final edge.
« última modificação: Julho 10, 2011, 11:24:52 am por GrandRoyaL »

GrandRoyaL

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Re:Pirometro. dicas para medir temp dos pneus na pista e o que fazer com isso.
« Resposta #1 Online: Julho 10, 2011, 12:43:13 am »
Probe versus Infrared
 

Choosing a pyrometer? What is better; probe type or Infrared? The answer really depends on the application. Most tire engineers prefer the probe type for tires as the probe gets down to the cord. At the cord, the tire heat is un-affected by out side factors and the surface rubber insulates the heat for long enough for you to take readings. There is also an elastic stretching of the rubber near the cord that creates heat as well. The bottom line is that probe type pyrometers are best for specific applications such as tires.

On the other hand, Infrared pyrometers are versatile and can be used to check just about any kind of surface temperatures. You can find sources of heat which will affect the driver, locate dead engine cylinders, check track temperatures, brakes and just about anything. You can even use them on tires. However, this is a bit of a compromise. You will be getting a surface reading that will be 10-40 degrees cooler than temps taken with a probe type pyrometer. You will also get variances from the engine and brake heat. Further, the track temperature will cool off the surface very quickly. A tire with camber in it will ride on the inside edge when the car is rolling back to the pits. The area that is in contact with the track will cool down at a different rate than the rest of the tire. Your readings will not be as relative as compared to probe readings.

If you accept the limitations, the Infrared pyrometers will work for tires but will not be relative to probe readings nor will the delineation be as good. Using the right tool for the right job always produces better results. Just as the probe type is better for tires, the infrared type is better for most other surface temps. The probe type is designed to be submerged in rubber and does not work well for things like track temperatures. For rubber, probe type is best. For surface measurements, the infrared stands out.

GrandRoyaL

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Re:Pirometro. dicas para medir temp dos pneus na pista e o que fazer com isso.
« Resposta #2 Online: Julho 10, 2011, 12:43:35 am »
   

Notes on Temperature Averaging
 

    * Averages have more meaning when Camber, Tire Pressure, Stagger, Toe in and basic set up are correct. #1 rule in racing is to have all four wheels pointed straight ahead in order to consistently win races.

    * You can see slightly higher front averages (5 to 10 degrees or so) due to absorption of heat from the engine and brakes.

    * Hot inboard edges of rear tires can indicate too much rear tire stagger which can slightly skew temperature averages.

    * New tires give the best results when taking temperature averages. Maximum heat is generated with all areas on the tire in new condition. More detail will be shown as no edges are ground off or over used. Camber curves are shown with more clarity. A racer should take advantage of their investment in a set of new tires and take special note of these average temperature readings.

    * If the driver were to slow down so as to not slide the front tires when a car had a tendency to push then the hotter rear average would indicate a push instead of the generally assumed loose condition. Since most drivers drive as hard as they can they usually slide the front tires when the car has a tendency to push causing the front tires to overheat. When this condition is present the driver usually comes in for adjustments during a practice session rather than abusing the tires lap after lap.

    * If one end of the car is sliding or spinning extra heat will be generated by that end until the adhesion in those tires is used up. At this point of overheating the tires will probably never have the same grip that they had before they were over used and tire temperatures will drop due to the poor condition of the tires and less friction being produced. Care should be taken to know the driving style of your driver and condition of tires in order for the temperature averages to be a useful tool.

    * Generally, temperature averages that are more equal LR/RF against RR/LF will show a car that will be better on a long run, however some short track racers may find some extra speed in a short race with 10 or so degrees difference with the LR/RF showing the extra heat. The tires in this situation are actually being overworked a small amount gaining you the extra speed. Sometimes in a short event the tires will put up with the extra abuse resulting in faster lap times in the short distance. In a longer event the car would be fast for a bit but fade the back as the event wore on. The proper amount of differential will be learned from experience.

    * Excessive difference between Left and Right side temperatures can show a car that will be fast for a short period and then fade as the right side tires get over used due to the left side tires not doing their share of the work.

    * Excessive Front Averages generally indicate a pushing condition.

    * Excessive Rear Averages generally indicate a loose condition.

    * Tire temperatures should be taken as quickly as possible for the best readings and the probe needs to be inserted to the same depth each and every time. Reading should be taken as close to the cord as is reasonable.

    * Used properly, temperature averages can be a fine tuning tool for a car that is already in the ball park and can be an indicator of future performance. Temperature Averaging can show a car that is starting to push or be loose before the driver senses the problem. Many times with new tires the car feels great to the driver because of the extra friction in the new rubber. The new tire can cover up a handling problem where the temperature averages would show the detrimental heat build up at a given end or cross. The closer you get to the optimum set up the more value you will get from the Temperature Averages. Temperature Averages used in conjunction with driver feedback, a good stopwatch, experience and crew chief voodoo is the best crystal ball you can find today.

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Re:Pirometro. dicas para medir temp dos pneus na pista e o que fazer com isso.
« Resposta #3 Online: Julho 10, 2011, 10:43:09 am »
Muito bom o tópico parasse uma visão geral sobre o assunto

You wash your car like it was your firstborn child, you tend to its needs like
it was your own body, you protect it like it's your family,
then you drive it like you stole it.

MartimLima

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Re:Pirometro. dicas para medir temp dos pneus na pista e o que fazer com isso.
« Resposta #4 Online: Julho 10, 2011, 02:18:55 pm »
Muito bom mesmo, eu tenho um pirometro de contato e infra, cheguei a fazer algumas medições em um TD de Capuava, mas acredito que para ser efetivo precisa de uma pessoa focada somente para tirar estas medições e conclusões, e claro o carro tambem deve permitir ajustes de cambagem dianteira, traseira e outros, pois sem a possibilidade disso a unica coisa que da para fazer é aumentar ou diminuir a calibragem.

Mas é legal, em capuava eu tava com uma prancheta anotando os dados de alguns carros de conhecidos, dai a galera ficou curiosa, com certeza os pneus dizem muito sobre como o carro esta se comportando na pista, agora saber ler isso e tomar alguma atitude é mais complicado, mas com certeza estas dicas ajudam bastante.



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Re:Pirometro. dicas para medir temp dos pneus na pista e o que fazer com isso.
« Resposta #5 Online: Julho 11, 2011, 11:56:47 am »
Muito bom mesmo, eu tenho um pirometro de contato e infra, cheguei a fazer algumas medições em um TD de Capuava, mas acredito que para ser efetivo precisa de uma pessoa focada somente para tirar estas medições e conclusões, e claro o carro tambem deve permitir ajustes de cambagem dianteira, traseira e outros, pois sem a possibilidade disso a unica coisa que da para fazer é aumentar ou diminuir a calibragem.

Mas é legal, em capuava eu tava com uma prancheta anotando os dados de alguns carros de conhecidos, dai a galera ficou curiosa, com certeza os pneus dizem muito sobre como o carro esta se comportando na pista, agora saber ler isso e tomar alguma atitude é mais complicado, mas com certeza estas dicas ajudam bastante.



 E tambem o estilo de condução do piloto para futuros ajustes ehehe